Within the early 2000s, followers, musicians, and allies of Seattle’s all-ages music scene had been within the battle of their lives. A minimum of, that’s what it felt like from the entrance traces. For shut to twenty years certainly one of Seattle’s most vibrant and passionate music communities had been suffocated by the Teen Dance Ordinance, a restrictive 1985 regulation that made all of it however inconceivable for Seattle venues to legally host all-ages concert events. The kids! Somebody had to consider the kids! It was bullshit.
By the mid-90s, individuals had had sufficient and the battle to repeal the TDO started. Seattle loves to assert music as a part of its DNA; it should not have been an issue, proper? Incorrect. The Metropolis was being run by a bunch of conservative dumb dumbs who loooOOoooOOOooved the Teen Dance Ordinance. Mayor Paul Schell, Seattle Metropolis Legal professional Mark Sidran, and Council Member Margaret Pageler.
There have been shouting matches at Metropolis Corridor and dance-ins throughout neighborhood conferences. The Stranger even organized a flash mob earlier than flash mobs had been a factor to carry a dance-in throughout certainly one of Pageler’s pro-TDO neighborhood conferences. Rocky Votolato performed an Elvis Costello tune, greater than 100 individuals pushed chairs out of the best way to begin dancing, and Pageler threw a literal tantrum. Ah, these had been the times.
It’s an enchanting time in Seattle’s music historical past, however one which’s not often talked about anymore. Till now. In his podcast for KUOW, Let the Youngsters Dance, music journalist Jonathan Zwickel digs into the historical past of the Teen Dance Ordinance—from the way it got here to be in 1985 to the way it impacted younger individuals by the 90s to the way it finally, lastly, was repealed and changed by the All Ages Dance Ordinance.
Whereas it is an intensive historical past lesson, full of unusual twists and voices (what does Keith Morris of Circle Jerks should do with Seattle’s battle for all-ages music? Hear to search out out!) it additionally solely scratches the floor. Zwickel was good sufficient to seize espresso after the podcast had wrapped taping to speak extra about what he uncovered throughout his reporting.
I need to discuss in regards to the genesis of the podcast. A lot of it’s in regards to the Teen Dance Ordinance, however even within the early 2000s, after I was reporting on it for The Stranger, I did not know a lot in regards to the long-standing historical past of Seattle’s downside with dancing. I did not learn about how there was only one dance marathon in Seattle that led to tragedy, for instance. So entering into this, do you know the TDO was simply echoing issues that had been taking place for generations? Or did you discover out the TDO was the tip of the iceberg as you began to do analysis?
I had some inkling about that, however it wasn’t clear simply how straight associated or how direct that lineage actually is. The entire dance marathon factor, I first came upon about that after I did a particular concern at Metropolis Arts about dancing in Seattle and why would not Seattle dance? Or why, no less than, does Seattle have the fame as a spot that doesn’t dance?
Which has lengthy been its fame.
Which has lengthy been its fame, however it additionally isn’t true essentially! There are locations the place Seattle dances, there are locations and instances. There’s a long-standing historical past of ballroom dance, swing dance—Century Ballroom has a really lively neighborhood. And there is additionally a long-standing historical past of underground digital dance music and rave tradition taking place right here within the ’80s, ’90s, into the 2000s. And if you happen to go to Nectar on the best evening of the week, all people in there may be dropping their minds and dancing a swirly hippie dance. You might be in the best place on the proper time for that form of atmosphere. You can even by no means enterprise into these environments and see that type of stereotype of the folded-arm indie rocker, simply nodding, you already know, considerably sagely at no matter’s taking place on stage.
You point out within the intro of the podcast that you simply’re doing this podcast as a result of not lots of people at present know in regards to the historical past of the Teen Dance Ordinance and the anti-dancing legal guidelines in Seattle as a result of individuals don’t actually speak about it. Do you’ve gotten a principle as to why?
That is a very good query. I imply, I am unable to say that I’ve a working principle. It is nearly like perhaps speaking about it’s form of corny? I take into consideration within the ’50s and ’60s, there was a man, Emmett Watson, who was a newspaper columnist. He was form of a gadfly, man about city, who additionally based the Lesser Seattle motion. This was at a time when the Chamber of Commerce was making an attempt to, you already know, type of throw open the doorways to the town and to immigration from California and different locations to construct up the financial vitality of the town. Emmett Watson didn’t like that concept. He did not need new individuals coming right here. So this was form of a NIMBY mentality…
Seattle’s first NIMBY…
[Laughs] Effectively, what’s attention-grabbing about him was that he was additionally a giant supporter of girls’s lib, he was closely towards the Vietnam Conflict… like his politics had been fairly proper on.
That sounds so Seattle, although! Like, “I’m gonna be a NIMBY, however get an abortion! I’ll pay for it!”
Proper? Completely. He’s a sophisticated man and this concept of Lesser Seattle, I feel, is an instance of making an attempt to maintain this place singular and distinctive. In some methods, I feel it additionally corresponds to the thought of the Seattle Freeze, proper? Let’s simply protect the spirit of this place that makes it distinctive with out watering it down. For those who’re in a position to immigrate right here and acknowledge there’s a sure manner we do issues right here, then by all means we’ll welcome you. For those who’re making an attempt to vary issues round on us, although, we’re going to let you know to return to California. That is perhaps curmudgeonly, that is perhaps NIMBY, however I feel it’s extra difficult than that and I discover it form of respectable, really.
In so many historic actions, individuals have a good time the time when one thing was overturned or modified, like, “Look how far we have come!” We do not do not do this a lot within the Seattle music scene. I do not know if that is distinctive to Seattle. I’ve solely lived in Seattle and Nashville, two very music-centric cities, and Nashville is all about its historical past. Seattle is simply too, in a manner, however not in the identical self-congratulatory manner. Right here it is like, “Yeah, we had Nirvana and grunge and stuff, however shut up. Do not say the G phrase.” Seattle is at all times making an attempt to show it is extra than simply its historical past. Which is form of bizarre to me.
It’s, I feel, very tied up within the psychology of this place, which stays so elusive to me. I imply, if there’s a definition to it, it is that it may possibly’t be outlined, proper? It resists definition. It is stunning and it’s irritating. You’ll be able to’t pin it down.
This podcast is an efficient reminder of that! At one level within the podcast, you (rightfully) surprise how a metropolis with such a vibrant arts scene can nonetheless be such a “nanny state,” I feel you known as it. It may be conservative. In comparison with Alabama are we conservative? No. However Seattle has by no means been this lawless place it has a fame for being. Do you agree with that?
Oh, for positive. One factor that got here to gentle in the course of the recording for the podcast is that inside the all-ages music neighborhood and even inside the late-night music and nightlife scene, these are communities which are constructed on belief and self-policing. There is no such thing as a formal construction, actually, they’re meant to be open to all people, egalitarian, proper? And since there isn’t any formal construction, that makes them weak to individuals who need to are available and lay down some construction and perhaps aren’t purchased into the inventive, emergent spirit that these communities dwell in. Which then leaves it open to opportunists. In order that’s how we get any person like Mark Driscoll getting into the all-ages neighborhood, the place there beforehand had been no governance, no establishments round it. I feel Mark Driscoll is an instance of that, Dave Meinert is an instance of that. Even Mark Sidran is an instance of that, too, much less within the cultural house and extra within the political house.
The truth that Seattle has the exhausting prevailing theme of “We don’t have a theme, we’re simply making it up as we go!”—artists thrive in that chaos, craziness. Different persons are afraid of that. It’s stunting or probably dangerous to them, they will’t wrap their head round it, so that they need to institute guidelines. These are the competing forces that you simply see. For so long as Seattle is a free and open sandbox for creativity, which I feel to some extent it at all times will probably be—it’s the final metropolis, it’s the highest left nook, white people bought right here final out of anyplace—it’s nonetheless turning into itself. You’re gonna have individuals who need to lay down the regulation, impart their very own guidelines and personal sense of construction, maybe out of a way of wanting to assist? I feel Sidran most likely believed that he was justified in his beliefs and he was making an attempt to make the town higher. Or persons are doing the identical factor for simply their very own ends.
That’s the factor. I bear in mind pondering on the time when individuals had been so immune to overturning the Teen Dance Ordinance that it was clear they’d by no means been to an all-ages present of their life. Sidran, Margaret Pageler, the individuals who had been very towards letting the children dance mainly, they didn’t even actually give a shit on a private stage. What they wished to do was have the looks for his or her constituents that they had been doing one thing and making a change that mattered to the mother and father or the individuals who would vote for them. It’s performative. It was a low-stakes performative factor for them, however for us, it was really costing us what felt like our livelihood after we had been 16 and 17 years outdated. Wanting again at present, do you get that sense? Or, alternatively, did you discuss to anyone who was like, “I used to be on the improper aspect of historical past on that one”?
No. I hoped that Sidran would perhaps have some self-consciousness or consciousness round that.
Like, “I overreacted, sorry!”
There was nothing like that. He emailed me some fairly prolonged e mail responses, and I feel I did quote somewhat little bit of a kind of emails, and I wished to do extra of that. And my editors had been like, “Eh, it feels a bit like an ambush.” Although he gave us permission to make use of the emails. However I could not assist however place them as like, “Take a look at this man. He nonetheless would not get it. He’s nonetheless defending himself. He nonetheless would not see that historical past views all this very unfavorably.” Everyone that I spoke to, folks that had been politically concerned again then—James Keblas, Kate Becker, even Greg Nickels or Jim Pugel—no person was actually keen to take a guess as to his mindset or his intentions. Which is why I actually wished to ask him. I feel even in a few of these e mail responses, he revealed he believed that this was the best way to make the town higher.
I used to be stunned by how reaching the subject is, and what number of completely different paths you are taking and completely different individuals you find yourself speaking to. You discuss to fucking Keith Morris of the Circle Jerks! Are you able to discuss somewhat bit about how this took you in shocking instructions?
I talked to a man named Keith Asphy, who was a teenage celebration promoter within the ’80s—he was so beneficiant together with his time, and he had nice tales. He began placing on home events then began placing on dance events on the Filipino American Corridor and each doable social corridor across the CD and on Rainier and really rapidly bumped into issues with the SPD. There’s all kinds of racist enforcement of the TDO. Sidran, he was imposing a noise ordinance, inequitably. He shut down one thing like 17 or 19 golf equipment over the course of his 10 or 11 years in workplace, and 10 or 11 of these had been Black-owned and R&B or hip-hop golf equipment. And he made very public statements about, “Oh, it’s the clientele at these golf equipment that’s the downside. It’s not the music, it’s the clientele.”
No surprise he didn’t discuss to you!
It looks as if there was no consciousness of the racist pitfalls he was getting into. I wished to get into that entire facet of the TDO and the way it was inequitably enforced and the way it befell the Black neighborhood in another way. Initially, we had that because the second half of one of many earlier episodes, however the extra I talked to people, the extra tales I bought, the extra apparent it turned, “Oh, it is a entire episode. That is value together with in a extra important manner.”
And, you already know, the truth that Macklemore performed his very first present at Sit & Spin for a Sureshot Sunday, that was his launchpad, and this was one thing the town was actively making an attempt to close down on the time and we wouldn’t have had, prefer it or not, one of many metropolis’s primary superstar representatives at this level had the TDO been profitable in shutting down that membership. These tales are actually necessary to get into.
You’re on the board on the Vera Challenge, and also you’re nonetheless very in tune with not simply the music neighborhood however the all-ages neighborhood—how wholesome do you’re feeling like Seattle’s music scene is correct now?
It’s such a wierd second proper now. Earlier than the pandemic, it appeared just like the wave in Seattle was very a lot oriented round R&B and hip-hop and that’s utterly gone. The pandemic occurred, and three years later what’s rising is oriented round punk and hardcore. The bands and followers that align with that scene or discover their individuals in that scene, they’re having a heyday proper now, from what I can inform. There are just a few completely different punk homes which are extraordinarily prolific, there are additionally reveals that occur underneath the First Avenue bridge. That’s, apparently, the place this extremely lively, vibrant, type of queer, non-binary, POC-focused hardcore scene is erupting proper now, and that sounds wonderful! That sounds wonderful to me. And I like the truth that it’s not centered in conventional typical venues. I don’t need to say it’s the identical because it ever was, however it does appear to be it’s at all times vibrant and it is at all times embattled.
We’re nonetheless failing to assist artists instituionally, failing to supply inexpensive housing for younger individuals and artists to allow them to exist and simply be within the metropolis. We now have the assets, and we’ve people who find themselves keen to consider this stuff, however we’re now once more operating up towards this conservative metropolis council and conservative metropolis legal professional who completely echo again to the Sidran days. It is this pendulum swing of like, “We now have supported the humanities and progressive causes for too lengthy!” And so now they should snap again to cleansing up the streets and have regulation and order as soon as once more. The truth that we won’t navigate much less of a swing of extremes is so irritating as a result of I feel that is what all people desires, however for no matter cause, we can not seem to discover that stability.
